Honourable Judith Collins, MP for Papakura

It was a pleasure and privilege to speak with the Honourable Judith Collins to learn more about her experiences in politics and her current interests in technology and how it can shape outcomes for Aotearoa New Zealand.  Judith was the second female leader of the National Party, after Dame Jenny Shipley.

Judith, you have a background in law, what was your catalyst for going into politics?

“I grew up in the Waikato and studied at Matamata College and the Universities of Canterbury and Auckland.  At Auckland I received an LL.B, then a Masters in Law, and a Masters in Taxation Studies, and went on to practice commercial, property, tax and employment law for 20 years. I ran my own practice for a decade.  Because the legal profession is steeped in politics, that fostered my interest.  I served as the President of the Auckland District Law Society and Vice President of the New Zealand Law Society where many of our dealings were with central politicians. In the 2002 election, I stepped into the political arena, despite an MP advising me that I should wait!”

As an experienced leader, what continues to drive you to want to serve both in the New Zealand Parliament and the New Zealand Government?

“My question always is: ‘am I adding value?’ so I know as the Member of Parliament for Papakura for the last 21 years I bring a sense of what is very much on the ground. It’s important for my constituents who are not immersed in politics to just pay their bills and look after their kids. I often bore my Caucus colleagues by telling them that no one in Papakura cares about esoteric issues; they care about safety, their rent or mortgage, whether their children are going to school and if they have a future.  I add a different aspect into Parliament and am very focused on making sure I deliver.  I come from a rural background, so for those not having experience growing up on a farm, I believe it’s good to be able to add these perspectives.  Every three years we get a very public job interview and I have continued to be elected!  I’m excited every day to go to work.”

How do you re-frame your leadership profile given the number of roles that you have held in public life?

“It’s simple:  work out what you want to do then get into doing it. I’m focused on the present and the future – foreign direct investment, technology, science, digitizing government, and land information -they are all very forward-looking.  I have an inquiring mind and am always interested in everything.  I don’t like being bored so I like moving to new portfolios, especially science and technology.  I’m now involved in AI and bringing people in Parliament together to learn about it. There are dangers, so I’m trying to stay abreast.  I pickup myself up every morning and get to it, so I ask and learn by doing.

I don’t need to be the AI expert, but I do need to know enough.  It’s basically software that takes data and is programmed to do certain things.  Sometimes the data may be wrong or biased because AI spits out what it has, therefore the algorithms may be incorrect.  I can see huge opportunities to use AI, but also understand that we need to know what’s right or wrong.

The use of AI should always have a human responsible for what is put in and what is put out.  I see AI as having opportunities in health for diagnosis and scans (retinas is one good example) so that successfully trained medical professionals are freed up to deliver treatment.  AI is also suitable for quick diagnoses so where it can help we should definitely use it.  The USA and UK are grappling about how to regulate AI, which is a bit like regulating physics, but New Zealand has already done this by using privacy law.  However, by using people’s private data and the way that governments use data to analyze, we need to be very aware of what other jurisdictions are discovering and what we can learn from them.  We need to keep abreast with the US and UK and Europe, so we can borrow and get better.

If you use Google maps when you’re driving, you’re already using AI!  There’s no one sitting in a little box anywhere, it’s there to make our lives simpler.  Also, for elderly people who forget to take pills, something will pop up on your phone that talks to you about the medication.

AI is also very helpful in education, but people are unsure of its capabilities when they don’t understand the process.  In Korea, I understand that school students get an ipad or chrome book or laptop and on that device is an AI programme to enable that student to do their homework. The AI becomes a tutor and will come back and ask the student if they have done their research or advise them to go back to a certain lesson and discover an error.  It’s less expensive and when there aren’t people around to mentor and guide, it’s an asset.  However, we need to be able to trust the people who are assimilating the information.”

How do you re-shape your leadership purpose and intent within the current political climate?

“I keep doing my job which is leadership in my electorate. It’s not difficult as I’ve had to reinvent over the years.  I don’t wander around asking for advice, I don’t have therapy or anything, I just do it, it’s who I am. I’m a resilient person and I’ve learned that over the years that I can withstand most things. I’ve been knocked around a few times but what I can’t withstand is not doing something.

I’m not a quitter, I don’t have a lazy gene (nor do my brothers and sisters, and we all have different careers) we just keep on going, it’s genetic!  My purpose is science and technology, and growing the New Zealand economy.

In 1981, the Springbok tour was the biggest division in our country; a division of people and families.  And now we are in similar times.  It’s so important that we think outwards not inwards and about how to secure our future as a country especially in this economy, because people can’t pay their bills.    We’ve spent the last six years looking inward – even the really good stuff that was seen overseas as world leading. I can’t over-emphasize that around 60-70% of the economy is damaged, and not just because of Covid.  People are worried for themselves, and other people are leaving for Australia.  We made it too easy for people to up stakes and move. Australia has recently made it easier for Kiwis to leave by providing an easy path to citizenship for New Zealanders in Australia.

But, we have put very little into the markets and the science and technology arenas and so we have failed to capitalize on New Zealand’s excellent reputation overseas. Additionally, we’ve had a major increase in violent crime, especially for many ethnic minorities who own retail shops; they have become the brunt of particularly nasty attacks.

Divisions in society are influenced by the media and social media.  The current government has had a lot do with it.  There’s a lack of trust in the media, and in the government and law enforcement, where we’re seeing a drop-off in public support. Right now, we know that 40-50% of kids weren’t turning up at school.  We have to get our mojo back and look to the future which can’t be filled with ram raids, or people leaving their properties because they can’t pay the mortgage, or their grocery bills.”

Are there political goals that, if you had the opportunity to progress them, you would like to pursue?

“I have a vision for the country.  When I was growing up in the ‘60s and ‘70s, the ‘60s especially,  our money as a country came from exports to the United Kingdom, then we got the oil shocks, then the UK joined EEC ( now the EU) , and our markets dried up, so we had to find more.  We didn’t wallow, but a lot of people went through extreme pain, and we found other markets, and now we produce brilliant products which we sell at normally good prices especially to China. We are fortunate to have been the first developed nation to have a free-trade agreement with China.  We’ve tried to get a Free Trade Agreement with the US – think of Obama around the Asia-Pacific trade deal – but that got knocked on its head when President Trump opposed it.  To be fair, a lot of the left wing in New Zealand opposed it too! India is a nation that we should be doing more with, in trade and in sharing of experience.

Over the years, we’ve grown our markets in certain areas. When National was in government from 2008-17, we had two major areas that brought revenue in; first our primary products which equal 63% of the income we get into the country.  So, from a little country that really is a brilliant job. We also had tourism, foreign students, and manufacturing, but the big two were dairying and tourism.  Tourism died during Covid, and it is coming back, but not in quite the same way, and tourism is a low-wage economy. We’re not good servants here, so we have students coming from overseas who don’t mind doing the job for a while.  We don’t have a culture of professional service like many parts of the world.

We all want great healthcare, education and infrastructure. We’ve been knocked around. Where we do have a great opportunity is in science and technology.  If you know much about our agriculture, it’s all about technology and science.  For example, refrigerated containers were invented in New Zealand, and we are the most efficient farming people in the world. When it comes to carbon, pesticides, or anything affecting the climate, we’ve had the luxury of developing science for decades in Ruakura, and Massey and Lincoln. For decades farmers and exporters have been receiving advice from Crown Research Institutes and before that the DSIR.  Science has always been important, and the only way we could compete was to be better.

I like to use the example of Glaxo Smith Kline, started as Glaxo in New Zealand in the 1920s, in Bunnythorpe, a tiny town with a dairy factory that was owned by a Mr Nathan from Wellington. That’s where they produced the very first Vitamin D.  The big cities in the world were full of smog and smoke and children got rickets, but we had plenty of fresh milk in New Zealand. It’s from that milk that the first pharmaceutical quality Vitamin D was made. Glaxo shifted to the UK, for the same reason that many businesses have left our shores: capital, talent, and markets.  We need immigration, and we are in a worldwide search for talent. These challenges can be overcome by bringing in the right people with the right experience, the right capital and the right access to markets. They tend to go together.

I see for us our wonderful scientists and tech people moving our country into becoming a major exporter of science.  Think of all those who use Xero, which was started in New Zealand by Rod Drury. We have Rocket Lab which is on the NASDAQ, another Kiwi invention. Rocket Lab is still very focused on New Zealand with its Mt Wellington factory producing rockets for NASA.   There’s no free lunch for us, so we have to be smarter and more innovative and we need people and capital.

I plan to turn us into a high science country, understanding that our focus on primary products and tourism are not mutually exclusive to science and tech.  I want our country to be richer and our kids at school to have education to world class standard. I want our healthcare to be the best it can be.  I don’t want New Zealanders having to go to Australia to get medical treatment that should be available here. We have to stop thinking small and take away the division and hatred of people who are different, to get on and make this country great, and be humble with it.

It’s easy to get excited about what we do, humility is one of our greatest powers when we become wealthier.  In Papakura, I would like the kids who are in low decile schools to have a future in New Zealand, to be on good salaries, or owning their own businesses.  National believes in equality of opportunity. We need to celebrate success and we’re not usually very good at that.  Don’t despise people who have done well, however, be humble.

Science has created great results; we have great advantages so how do we take them and build on them?  We have 5 million people in the country, and 1 million overseas.  That creates a good crowd who are ambassadors for New Zealand –a big advantage.  We also have eight universities, which is quite a lot for a small country, however, all of them have a focus on research. In addition, we have seven Crown Research Institutes (CRIs) as well as Callaghan Innovation.  The opportunities to free up science for good can be illustrated by the CRI Scion in Rotorua which is dedicated to forestry; they’re in the process of inventing a sterile pine, but regulations stop them from taking the invention into a field trial within New Zealand.  That’s simply stupid.  We need to let Scion trial there science here.  We have 25 different research institutes, in healthcare, in wine, wool, etc.  They are all focused on science and technology.

Then there’s another consideration, we do all of this in English, which is the language of science, the reason being that it’s precise; a lot of the people working in it will be speaking  English which, as a very precise language is used as the lingua franca by many in science.  We are also part of the intelligence-sharing arrangement Five Countries/Five Eyes with the United States, Canada, UK, and Australia, so we’re trusted partners in space and telecommunications, which is a big advantage for New Zealand.  And, we have access to other people and markets just because we are New Zealanders.

There are more opportunities in science but they’re not being developed fast enough.  Science often takes many years of research before you get to commercialisation, but we’re now the 6^th largest space industry in the world.  The US scene is large and all-encompassing, but we have lots of innovative space people wo are doing wonderful stuff through partnering with Nasa and the IP is so precious.  That is extraordinary and has been built up over just the past 15 years.  If we can’t commercialise fast, we need to ask, why are we doing it?  We need capital, but there’s still a massive brain drain going to Australia because the country has progressed and has rolled out the red carpet for tech and science.  So, we are losing some, but we have retained some who stayed during Covid, so as a country we have opportunities to benefit.”

If there is ever a post-politics period for you, have you already turned your mind to it, and what would your priorities include?

“I was a public company director before I got into politics; I’ve done it before, so I’d be interested in doing it again, and something involving law perhaps- I still have my practicising certificate – or I might write another book.  However, I’m not thinking about leaving anytime soon!

I’m very happy with Christopher Luxon; he understands business, he has extensive work experience overseas and understands the American market, and we need someone who is outward looking to get the country going.  I enjoy working with people who don’t feel threatened by me and let me get on with my job!”

As a member of Global Women NZ, do you see the organization progressing gender equality for women?

“I joined Global Women when I was Minister of Justice, when the organization had just started. I think Global Women is like any organization –  it changes with whoever is leading it. Also, it tries to deal with the issues it faces.  I would have thought that one of the biggest hurdles for women in business is frankly the opportunities that come from expansion of business, but business is frightened of failing and that’s something we need to learn to embrace: failing.  That’s a big difference between New Zealand and US business culture.  We need to take risks and celebrate those risk takers. I’m not sure that’s a gender issue.  To me, celebrating success is great, but we also need to recognize that we only really learn from failing.

Does Global Women have a space?  It’s a coming together of people who are often dealing with the same challenges in their working career and can be inward-looking. I prefer it when GW doesn’t go down political pathways.  I find it uncomfortable if GW is used as a space to politicise.

The future of New Zealand will be driven by stopping looking at ourselves but instead looking at our advantages.  We are part of the Asia Pacific region which is a massive arena to step into.  Human Rights can be greatly increased when we have better technologies and income, however, we also need better education which is one of the things that I see failing right now.  But I’m positive about the future.  We need to make the outcomes happen, and that includes what happens to people, and get them into a position to pay their bills.

I have worked all my life as an adult, worked all the way through University, when I had a baby, I never stopped.  I completed both my Masters’ degrees and a Graduate diploma while working full-time. People need to have those opportunities to make the same or different choices, but everything has a consequence, which culminates in working a lot. But there is no equality without financial security.  The best way for any women to be secure is to have her own purpose, her own career, her own money.  By that I mean for me that my customers are the people of Papakura. The customers of Global Women are the members, and they are what matters. Once you lose a sense of what matters to the public, I think you lose the country.

I‘d love every govt department to treat the public as customers who have a choice of the government they wish to work with. When I see how some people are treated when they can’t talk to a human for example, they come to see their electorate MPs, but they shouldn’t have to do that.  People should be valued without having to bring in their MP to advocate for them.”

To give you briefings on AI, Science and Tech opportunities in New Zealand, a look through my LinkedIn shows some of the Tech Talk and Science Scoops podcasts that I do.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/honjudithcollins

Judith’s book Pull No Punches can be found here. It was the best-selling non—fiction book in New Zealand for six weeks in a row:  https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewBook?id=1505248547

Judith, thank you for your visible and tangible roles in New Zealand and the country’s politics.  We look forward to watching the exciting further development of science and technology under your leadership.